Bob ([info]xiota) wrote,
@ 2005-12-15 04:24:00
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Entry tags:intellectual masturbation

Here's my ramble about ontological realisms
What is an ontological realism? Well, first of all, let's define ontological. The study of that which exists, more or less. An ontology would be a system of categorization, or an expression of existence, of some type of object or class of "things." That was a bad definition, but whatever.

What is a realism? A realism is a philosophical doctrine that something is "real", that is, it is really actually there.

Types of realisms include transcendental realism (the world is a real thing outside of ourselves), Platonic realism (objects have their true "forms" existing in some other world or dimension or something), mathematical realism (numbers aren't concepts that describe the world, they actually EXIST in the world by themselves), and so on.

I make the distinction of an ontological realism to clarify that I am talking about a philosophical realism that some class of things "exists" independently (of humans, of experience, etc).

Now, it is my general rule of thumb that ontological realisms can never be proved, and most of them cannot even be pragmatically justified. I make THIS distinction because, well, the trivial realism - that the world exists independent of us (the original realism, maybe?), cannot be conclusively proved, but it's just useful to assume such - and it really really really seems true.

Anyway, so what about the unacceptable realisms? Well, the Platonic example was given, and who really believes in that, anyway? Let's take a more controversial example: ethical realism. Do "rights" exist independently, or did we make them up as useful concepts to explain what we think every human should probably be allowed to do?

What evidence for such a realism (what I call "conceptual realism", in the most general sense - that some concepts might exist independently of humans creating them) could there POSSIBLY be?

None! You cannot verify the existence of something that isn't physical - and that you deny is just something that people made up. Those are the only ways something can exist, aren't they? I'd like a counter-example, god dammit.

Anyway, ontological realisms are realisms that I call "make pretend", kind of like God. Mk?




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A few comments.
[info]cabrutus
2005-12-15 07:09 pm UTC (link)
(1) You may want to rephrase some stuff. For no one believes that concepts are mind-independent. Concepts are just pieces of minds. I think what you mean is that the contents of these concepts don't exist mind-independently.

(2) I used to be very ontologically parsimonious and resistant to ontological realisms. Now I find them pretty inescapable, in fact in a platonistic way. To see this, imagine that space and time didn't exist. (Isn't there a possible world in which nothing existed?)

Now, in this world, wouldn't the proposition "Nothing exists" be true? But how can something nonexistent be true or false? I don't think it could. So propositions must possibly exist without spacetime. But then those propositions must have the property of being true or false, so properties must possibly exist without spacetime. Relations, too, which are just properties; the proposition "nothing exists" would have the relation of identity with itself. And finally, the number of cats in that world would be zero. So it looks as if propositions, properties, relations, and numbers must possibly exist without spacetime, which confirms platonism.

(3) I don't know what the argument is that you can't verify the existence of something nonphysical. (I sort of just did in the above examples.) But you might be able to do it other ways. It may be that the classic arguments for dualism are wrong, but I don't think that their wrongness has to do with the unverifiability of what they claim exists.

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Re: A few comments.
[info]xiota
2005-12-15 09:27 pm UTC (link)
Hmm interesting thoughts... as you may have noticed, that was more of me rambling (in fact notice the time stamp), so I haven't thought about it entirely.

I guess what I meant to say was that I can't for the life of me understand what the basis for an ontology of, say, rights is. "Says who?" is my initial reaction. Any thoughts on that specific example?

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Re: A few comments.
[info]cabrutus
2005-12-15 09:32 pm UTC (link)
"Rights seem to exist.

Seemings are prima facie evidence.

There's no evidence that rights don't exist.

Therefore, probably, rights exist."

That's the basic argument. Do you want to deny the second premise? I think that's the only remotely vulnerable one.

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Re: A few comments.
[info]xiota
2005-12-15 09:39 pm UTC (link)
prema facie evidence && no counter evidence -> probably exists?

I would highly deny that implication.

I would say it suffers from the "insert any word here [like god] to make a funny analogy" symptom - unless you can tell me why it doesn't.

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Re: A few comments.
[info]cabrutus
2005-12-15 10:00 pm UTC (link)
It's true by definition. Prima facie evidence just is evidence that if undefeated justifies belief.

There's no prima facie evidence for God's existence. And even if there were, it's defeated in various ways, e.g. inductive arguments, the problem of evil, etc.

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Re: A few comments.
[info]xiota
2005-12-15 10:37 pm UTC (link)
Ok, so what's the prima facie evidence for rights again?

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[info]keith_face
2006-04-21 04:49 pm UTC (link)
just out of curiousity, i know you have a pretty strong stance against agnosticism and you've argued for atheism several times in your entries. but if you apply the statement "you cannot verify the existence of something that isn't physical" to the existence of god, that seems to leave agnosticism as the only acceptable ideology.

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[info]xiota
2006-04-21 05:02 pm UTC (link)
If you've carefully read my defenses of atheism, you'd note that I admit that god is like this - but that does not mean we should say "I don't know", but rather "that's make pretend."

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